Every time they had a new Prime Minister, we had a new set of characters. Toward the end it was all about these four names or these six names and how do we get their votes. And presided over eight years of peace. Today it is seen as structural. Fourth, I recall that the economic forecasts for 93 were not very heartening. I dont think anybody during the campaign expected that Clinton would turn out to be the deficit hawk that he did. That was on a Friday evening. Were you privy to the conversations that he had? I mean, he seemed to be quite consistent about that, even though the rest of the field was, as I recall, quite a bit more protectionist. No, what Im trying to say is that there were several points of view advanced by some of the people there, who had, in one form or another, policy experience. I have always liked Mrs. Clinton and I had a lot of respect for her and do have a lot of respect for her. He knew what was possible; he knew what wasnt possible. He really enjoyed it, stayed up every night till four in the morning, and believe me, I know that because I was going to his room at three in the morning with these various wordings. NAFTA had much broader support among the so-called or self-styled elites, the business leadership, all the economics community, the foreign policy establishment. I didnt have a background in healthcare of any kind, and I began to see that it was overloading the circuits to try to do as much as some wanted to. I didnt, no. Youre an exception to this. At the end of the lunch he asked me if I would serve as Deputy Secretary and I said I would. He had a great time. Lets divide concessions into two: actual changes in the bill, and then offering a Congressman something in another area to help make it easier for him to vote for this. Chicago, of course, always has been, and they attracted very different students. There ensued a quite Byzantine process, as has been so widely written about with multiple task forces and enormous numbers of people involved.There were a lot of these Bill Clinton-style meetings, great big long meetings with far too many people in the room. I suppose everyone has his own definition of intimate, but by any standard Im familiar with, I was not an intimate of Clintons. I should have said I was either going to or not going to, but anywaySo that meeting came and went and at least nobody at the Treasury thought much about it. My point is that if one was a Republican in 93, one could say, Okay, Im going to vote against this so Im not on record of favoring any kind of tax increase, and that protects me politically and if that works out, I dont lose anything, so Im politically immunized. I left the Treasury about a month later when my successor Frank Newman, who was then Under Secretary for Domestic Finance, was nominated and had been confirmed. The entire economic team flew on a chartered plane down to Little Rock. If Im not mistaken, we were looking at a $350 billion deficit, up from about $260 or something that we had been generally using during the campaign. I think that had to do with the actual signing of the treaty. I believe it was the same night that she gave her press conference. But the program wasnt structured that would give you half a loaf, was it? So if you want to call it the politics of the economy, The labor unions were overwhelmingly opposed. We did have goals. I also learned that when I saw that, it wasnt likely to ultimately succeed. He said, I know this will be hard, but I think I can get those folks. I thought he was finished. So that was the revelation, so to speak, that occurred that day. Bentsen also wanted the resignation of the Treasury General Counsel, who resigned too. Whether his actual conversation with Dick Morris about the Lewinsky matter is true or not, would the American people accept an apology? It wasnt particularly formed before then. Yes, he did. Before we come back to this, I want to pose one question and that is about the Presidents style when he was working the phones with members of the House. Im very fond of her, extremely fond of her, and it was, Other than that, how was the play, Mrs. [Mary Todd] Lincoln? But, in any event, everything was going fine at the RTC until, unfortunately, the matter of Madison Guaranty came up. That ostracism certainly hasnt afflicted the Clinton alumni. It had a very different constituency than the economic plan. Then I would have discussions with Clinton, usually on the fly, about certain economic issues I thought were important. He has his own views in private, of course. In all aspects? Ultimately they were in effect combined into one big wish list, and that wish list went forward. Altman made a point to carry shoes as tiny as size 5 and mammoth as size 20, with widths ranging from super skinny AAAA to 6E and kept 23 basement storage If nobody else has any more questions about that, the other trade issue that you were greatly involved with that we touched on only once or twice has been Japan. Yes, Clinton was gregarious, obviously bright. Thats a different issue. We believed that by maintaining the highest standards of excellence we could create a firm unlike any other in terms of capabilities to advise on highly complex strategic transactions, dedication to our client and our experience and professionalism. At the time we were working on it there was a sense on the Japanese side that it was a zero-sum game. Everyone was thinking about one thing and not expressing it. I recall a large event, right after New Years, the fourth of January I believe, in 92, that I organized at their request, which was just simply to have a large number of people listen to Clinton give a speech. You sit down with the leaders of your own party in the Congress, ultimately with the entire leadership, and then you learn a little bit about the realities that you face from the legislative point of view. And it was just fuel on the already roaring fire of Whitewater. Youre serving your country. Help us understand why he would elect to move NAFTA at this point? But it was quite obvious that wed lost the battle. I can vote against it, tell my constituents Ill never support a tax increase. No, let me just correct the record. Mostly because Clinton put everyone in a room, for endless hours, to the point where most people wanted to drop and everybody was sitting there around the table. So I did a lot of work representing the Treasury on any number of issues in the White House councils of deliberation. I only heardpeople are very superstitiousso I was told, It looks better or It looks like it may be all right. We went back to square one. He knew every comma and apostrophe in the bill. I really believe it was that day that his view changed. Certainly, when he captained it, it was a different party than it had been for the previous 50 years. So my wife and I flew down to Little Rock and I met with Clinton for about two hours. There were so many different Japanese Prime Ministers in that period I cant remember which one we had at that moment. We then embarked on a search for a candidate and give or take three or four months later found one who, ironically, was a Republican. No. My assumption is that you must have been doing that from two perches, your first perch being in the Treasury Department and then eventually the war room was opened up, and then you at some point were moved into the war room. As I recall, Al Gore wanted it, cared a great deal about it, to some considerable degree got his way on it. There were not pitched battles. He could have just been rhetorically difficult about it and kind of accepted the fact that were steady as she goes on the Cold War, and he didnt. It turned out that the thing had really been left by the wayside and there was very little of the necessary planning that had gone into it and it was about two months off. But everybody felt such a part of it because they were sitting right there. And the reason he wasntnothing to do with Senator Kennedy himself. No. Hed been the Governor of New York for quite some time and everyone knew Cuomo and his coterie. Bentsen tended to say very little at those meetings except at the end, when Clinton would turn to Bentsen and say, What would you do, Lloyd? I dont recall having a meaningful role at the convention. So, as always happens, the policy apparatus was being built and the policy process was being deepened and becoming more sophisticated as the entire campaign evolved. The hearings ended around the fourth or fifth of August and it was now the seventeenth or something. It wasnt a process where people were maneuvering furiously to see who could get the last word in to the President or something. We were very explicit. Do you have the perception that there were some other instances where maybe this wasnt done? Ill give you an answer but Ill preface it by saying Im not sure my memory is quite right here. So I knew early on, but only because Lloyd Bentsen was in effect telling me. So its a free vote, ideologically and politically. So a group of us at the deputy level, Joan Spero, Charlene Barshefsky, Bo Cutter, me, who were the four senior members of that group, started entering into discussions with our Japanese counterparts. I do recall some rushed discussions at the very end about what we do now and how we flesh out his policies, and I can recall talking to George Stephanopoulos the morning the convention ended about certain steps we were going to take now in terms of getting better organized on policy development and issues. That was the fundamental choice they made in devising the reform. It was not an accident that he did that. But before then, somebody was charged with thinking about transitional issues, actually before the November election, and my question to you is whether, in your work in Treasury transition, you had relied on any work that had been done before? The chief, the captain of that ship with Mickey Kantor, USTR [United States Trade Representative], and to some considerable extent Ron Brown, Secretary of Commerce, and Lloyd Bentsen played a big role in it. I personally thought Rubin was most likely to be Secretary of the Treasury. In part, there was a sectoral approach. Then in the latter part of 93 I think, Whitewater began to surface, I think it was late 93. Lloyd Bentsen was a classic Texas conservative Democrat. That was in July or June or something. In the very beginning it wasnt as availed of, as it quickly became availed of later. I can recall David Halberstam on the way out saying to me that he never heard a politician as effective as Clinton since JFK [John Fitzgerald Kennedy]. A lot of people wanted to work on Capitol Hill or think tanks or with interest groups. Ironically, Clintons style for those meetings and the style of the present President are not very different. It was absolutely breathtaking, profoundly dramatic and unforgettable, absolutely unforgettable. The assessment was correct because, I cant recall the size of the economy then, but today it is about $10.7 trillion. It was a priceless education in the way the Congress and all the surrounding politics really worked. Against that test, a noncrisis Presidency, what can they achieve, under the extremely adverse politics of this time, thats been building up. But, in any event, as soon as I flew back from Tokyo, I moved into this area in the old Executive Office Building they had cleared out and I was the person in charge of the war room, and it worked I think for five weeks give or take. Ill never forget, I went in to see one of them whod been shot eight times. Thats a good point, but thats because there were some people whod been around the track. Not at the outside, but eventually, I came into the second camp because I began to understand the scope of the issue. Were you at all involved in the development of the side agreements on environmental issues and. Clinton had one and in this instance, on the stimulus program, he should have listened to him. He does not see that as one of his own great accomplishments. By that time, Clinton had his idea of the middle-class tax cut, and he had his idea of cutting the deficit in half during his first term, I think it was. What Im interested in is your perception of when the views that crystallized with economic policies were adopted in the first months of the administration. Anyway. I sat next to Mrs. Clinton at dinner. I know this sounds a bit odd, I hadnt thought about it a huge amount, partly because I had a full-tilt business career, and I was trying to separate the two. The President said to me at one moment when we were alone, and with great heat, he said to me, Roger, you see, theres no constituency at all for Wall Street economics, which is how he viewed his plan, that hed sold himself to Wall Street and you see theres no constituency for that because were about to lose. At my sons school, on the floor where the history department is, each President gets a little tiny picture and about two lines. Carter had his famous Pond House meetings, and I went to a couple of those. Well, it was supposed to become the law of North America on January 1st, wasnt it? Every imaginable issue arose and Clinton hit all those balls out of the park and it gave the American public a chance to see how astonishingly smart and deep this guy was. That process had been going on. I said to him, If I should resign, then thats what I want to do. I went back to the airport in Austin, reported that to Warren Christopher, and I think we were all announced within a week. Yes, I believe the charter of the RTC transcended whether it was a state chartered or federally chartered S and L. Well, the guarantees were not Federal if they were state chartered. He must have had enough of a political antenna to realize this was going to be a tough call in a Democratic constituency in Pennsylvania or Michigan. But for reasons I dont fully understand, it goes in cycles, and we came into office at a time when an up cycle so to speak on partisanship was asserting itself. The hearings process really kind of kicks it off. You may remember that a few weeks earlier, only two or three weeks earlier, the Clintons had finally caved and agreed to the appointment of a special prosecutor, having opposed that, and Mr. [Robert] Fiske was designated. Youre in such a good position to give us a comparative portrait of transitions internally. One, every morning of course, there was the senior staff meeting at the White House. I wasnt sitting all by myself with him, but sure, there were various opportunities to be in relatively small groups with him. Bentsen had known the then head of it, Albert Casey, whod been chairman of American Airlines, and didnt have a high regard for him. So it depends a lot on the people. More in terms of ostracism from your former colleagues. He is the only person who has declined because of heath reasons and we wont have the opportunity to talk with him. It was a successful fundraiser. You may remember that Clinton put forward a white paper, if I can call it that, called Putting People First, which came out I believe at the end of 1991. It was excellent. From the very beginning I was spending a lot of my time on the Presidents economic program. It wasnt a great agreement. I just know from prior experience that thats the way to do it. Anything in particular you recall that can flesh out the record? Erskine Bowles had to testify and so forth. But it doesnt mention that he was President. I went down there one day, came back the next day. The time for horse-trading was over. Lets hold off if we can just a couple of minutes before getting into the transition period and let me ask you a couple of questions about the campaign itself. Theres a time lag between taking painful steps to do something with the deficit and getting some response in the. McLarty called me in my hotel room in Tokyo and asked me if I would be willing to take in effect a leave of absence from the Treasury and go to manage a war room that they wanted to set up to try to get this bill passed, the Presidents economic program. When you say the coordinator, you mean of the Presidents message? The notion, by the way, in Bob Woodwards book, The Agenda, that Greenspan was hovering over the proceedings like an angel of death is completely fictitious. But I didnt know where the President was on NAFTA. Bill Clinton, by that one- or two-line standing, may not make the cut for the top tier. He had a certain way of carrying himself and a certain sense of very carefully managing his own stature. But, no, they couldnt have been more cooperative. Lets take five minutes and well come back for the rest of the morning session. So I served in that job for give or take a year, and I never had a single meeting on an investigation nor did any of my predecessors, just wasnt done, wasnt necessary, and so forth. Is he somebody who, from your perception, makes close friends at all? He has difficulty speaking. It just depended on the size of the concession. I dont know who was, and some people say there werent any, but I wasnt, even though I was always described that way, always baffled me. From that time forward, about 79 times out of 80 Clinton did whatever Bentsen said. What are the lasting accomplishments, the lasting legacies of this administration, regardless of whether the historians are going to pick up these strains as being historically important or flamboyantly important enough to elevate Clinton into an upper- echelon Presidency? But I worked on a lot of members of Congress, I enjoyed that, I just did. Then Clinton, as I mentioned, this one big event in January of 92Clinton was great on his feet. He is a trustee of MIT and serves on its Governance Committee. Yes, here in New York. Then, while the agreement called for there to be no further duties or tariffs or anything on everything, a whole variety of items were carved out in order to get certain votes. Can you tell us generally about your role during the general election campaign? Roger Altman (left) launched Evercore in 1995 and shed the CEO title in May of last year when Ralph Schlosstein (right) took it and quintupled assets under management to $15 billion. Now we became aware pretty early that there were some real problems with this proposal. I remember Allen going through that. I came to respect Dole a lot through Bentsen. I believe Perots presence helped Clinton because Perot kept saying how messed up the country was, so that actually helped the challenger rather than the incumbent. Mrs. Bentsen responded. But the burden of my question was it would be a lot of the people whod voted for the economic package that youre putting in this position, right? So heres a person who knew how to manage himself. But I remember we went to Little Rock. For example, much has been made of the dueling camps, the deficit hawks versus the populists. It begins I think with the economic and fiscal circumstances that the administration faced, and two in particular. In some measure. One, the recession of 91 and early or mid 92, the economy was performing poorly. Bob Rubin talked with great credibility about the bond market responding, and James Carville was so amusing for so long afterwards saying he wanted to come back in his next life and be the bond market because everybody paid such fealty to it. And I dont accept entirely your formulation, even though I think theres a lot to it. In the early period, there was a lot of discussion of broad strategy, how to create support for deficit reduction as a whole, how to talk about the program, what type of interest groups we needed to particularly work with and work on. But I think if you study American history and you look at any number of earlier periods, the attacks on Abraham Lincoln for example comes to mind, the Andrew Jackson period, such extreme partisanship is common in American history. Then once he started to make the rounds in New York, he generated very considerable positive reaction and became self-fulfilling, and raising money for him became quite a bit easier. If you think about his history, Bentsen had been a highly decorated war hero. Japanese discussions were harder, but the G7 summit was fine, it was easy. There was a stimulus package that dwindled, right? In a curious way hed compromised his own position. No. His first term wasnt so good, but his second term was wonderful. Yes, because obviously I was seen as somebody who had business credentials to some degree, conservative credentials, by Democratic standards at least. So maybe among the so-called populists there was a lot of anxiety as they saw this axis, the Bentsen-Rubin axis, develop and recognizing that both were relatively conservative. Well, we were talking about lasting changes. I was defeated in my effort to become student body president, as, interestingly, was Clinton. I mean, maybe Reagan was to some degree briefly an anomaly, although he never had the reputation of being an anomaly, and so I wondered if the President, as Commander-In-Chief, also responsible for foreign policy, viewed this particular policy in that light too. He created a big expectation with that speech that he gave I think in the fall of 1993. I mean, it was a larger package as it was originally conceived and then. I think thats a wonderful tradition. No. If anything comes to mind that we havent talked about, that youd like to have included. I dont think this is what it really says, but I suppose in the distant lens of history, Ronald Reagan ended the Cold War. We know youre extremely busy. I believe it was a five-year statute of limitations and the expiration date was January 94 or February or something like that. It is especially important then for the people who worked with him to give us reflections on his role. During the day two or three people from the administration spoke to KerreyMack McLarty and Leo Panetta spoke to Kerrey. WebRoger Ebert March 07, 1978. I stayed overnight, went back the next day. He was clearly learning as he went. Bentsen managed himself with extraordinary skill. Wasnt that a state-chartered institution? Yes I was asked to be part of that enterprise, but much later in the process. Once you get NAFTA behind you, my guess is that there were further discussions at that point about what ought to be next and this is when healthcare becomes a priority. Well, within about two weeks of the election, certainly by the end of November, the actual transition offices were established in Washington. Education might be something in terms of opening. Well, I recall particularly how weak the field was. It wasnt going to be a war between the United States and the Soviet Union. He knew how every member would vote. We didnt have a crisis in the foreign exchange markets. Remember, I was there during the 1963-67 period. We just discussed one of them, which is the up cycle in partisanship, as I call it. My view, theres no single answer to that at all, but if I were to list the elements of my response, the first one would be post-election. I hope he does. She figured in some bumper stickers also. It doesnt make sense, it belies any grasp of history, and so forth. He must have wondered what he was doing. I was an Assistant Secretary, I had a few meetings with President Carter but not that many, so I wasnt familiar, But it was not the way you would organize, and one wonders, Mack McLarty was the Chief of Staff at the time and came out of a business. It began to get organized at the end of 91. Senior Management, U.S. Investment Banking and Evercore ISI businesses are conducted through Evercore Group L.L.C., a member of. Was there anything that particularly distinguished this campaign from what youd seen in these other instances thats noteworthy? Secondly, the National Economic Council would meet very often for purposes of reviewing where this stood; I was on that as a standing member. I knew Bob Kerrey quite well by that time and Bob was very unpredictable. Somethings pretty strange here. The President decided it, but Mack McLarty actually called me. He was shot eight times, mostly in the chest. Not the first time he met with another head of state, but I think his first summit outside this country. His Presidency itself I think was a very strong one, but it doesnt make it into the top five or six. No because Clinton had determined, as he well should havesee, Presidents often dont do this, or Presidents-elect, but they shouldBentsen had to be satisfied that this was something he wanted. Its not clear to me however that history will accord him that credit. So it was a quick learning experience for Clinton. He helped me in my efforts and then a year later I helped him in his. You were responsible then for recruiting the people who were going to be in it? But thats the type of thing the Deputy Secretary sometimes does, or when there are problems with the IRS. In the 12 years between Clinton and Carter, there had been famous acrimony between the Fed and the White House and the Treasury. Was Bernard Nussbaum involved in the financing in this early period? I just remember that being contemporaneous with the real beginning of an organized effort here. By and large, most of the members of the Finance Committee in the Senate and the Ways and Means Committee in the House. It wasnt difficult. I cant remember allTom Brokaw was there, Davis Weinstock, Dick Beatty, Bob Rubin, George Katz, and/or Bernie Nussbaum were there. Was that true of Georgetown at the time that you were there? But thats what Congress guys wanted. Right as it was up, the Wall Street Journal does a full-page profile on Bentsen, right here on the right. Although the Whitewater event came well before Lewinsky, it came very early. We had a chronic problem with Japan because they had so many Prime Ministers. We didnt know if we were going to win. I started doing a lot of the same thing Id done on the economic plan: radio shows, television stuff, running around the country. I didnt know what to expect. Were there any big-picture elements that you wanted to put into the puzzle right now or should we just go ahead and break and we can pick up with some of the specifics on these things? Stephanopoulos was there and Sperling was there. But I think in Washington, except in dire emergencies, politics rules, and most Republicans had the view that they would rather die than vote for a tax increase. He did quite well. Were there different views? Hes the first guy who stepped in defeated. I dont include that on the list because the federal role in education is always exaggerated. Its actually enjoyable, its fun. He didnt, but he thought he could. 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