And let me say one more time-you are so good at this kind of thing. Then the sentencing happens afterward, moving felonies to misdemeanors. discoveries. Is is with a licensed professional whos trained and qualified in alcoholism? Velour, you are assuming Barbara is saying that based on his alcoholism. And thats wonderful news to hear about changed lives in your family. They also drive very slowly and deliberately, overcontrolling. They generally avoided RC Jr like the plague. There are ways to handle problems that other denominations use that dont involve this evangelical shoot-from-the-hip kick them out response. I found that quote on this site: Another poster posted Scripture from one of Pauls letters about not fellowshipping with people who proclaim faith in Christ Jesus, but live a life of continual unrepentant sin. What you experienced wasnt Matthew 18 church discipline. However, I have seen two people disfellowshipped at a church, and both of them should have been based on scripture. That would probably fall to the individual him or herself and/or their family. Velour was being hostile to a few people up thread such as Barbara and Julie Anne, and later, to me. R.C. I fully expect the 2000 BF&M to be modified in the future to make it more Calvinistic. You could maybe argue he could be permitted to be a Pew Potato, but I dont think he should be allowed to remain a preacher. He mocks people who dont drink like he does. Answer to God. Aha. Sproul 2 has his own household and is not part of his fathers household. :'(. I wanted to offer God as comfort but my father had had enough of the evangelical/catholic rhetoric from his mother and from our family priest and a war and so on. If I bailed them out every time they got into trouble theyd never learn that their bad choices have bad consequences. Sproul: Apparently he was genetically hardwired for alcoholism; from his first taste of alcohol, he immediately wanted more and more and more. Sr. CAN cut off the paychecks. He has suffered tragedies, yes. RC Jr., of course, was top dog in the congregation(s) he led because of his fathers reputation and influence, maybe? So a married guy being an alcoholic is a justification for using a cheating site? Sproul Jr. should definitely be fired for his litany of abuses of church members and his other disqualifying behaviors. By creating a false correlation you just gave him the excuse he needs, and youre not the only one here who keeps doing it. I think its the same person. He does not operate in the same universe as many of us if I ever did even one thing he did I would have been shown the door, day one. One that would intervene when a pastor went this rogue? Julie Anne showed a lack of knowledge about the topic of substance abuse. This is normal for their family. If RC Jr could have legally used the rack at St. Peter Presbyterian Im confident he would have, at the very least, held out the threat of its use. They did however report that his drivers license had been reinstated with no restrictions, and it was from there that I answered your question about that. RC Sproul passed on, aged 78 years, on 14th December 2017. So sorry my lived experience doesnt bolster her view points and philosophy. I have to be careful what I say because of my blog and if you went on to say JA is against treatment for alcoholics based on what you thought, you would be giving misinformation. (King relates this in the autobiographical first half of his nonfiction book On Writing. I dont draw a hard line in the sand, which I think can go to the other direction of legalism. it seems too public and intrusive for most people, I think; But we were in a semi-rural small town exurb and life is like that in smaller circles. By then he was almost dead from liver failure and heart disease. Spinderella points out that his behavior is hypocritical, given Sproul'sinvolvement in the Pro-Life Movement. Born Robert Charles Sproul on February 13, 1939 in Pittsburgh, Allegheny County, Pennsylvania, United States, RC, as he became best known, was the son of Robert Cecil Sproul and Mayre Ann Yardis. I appreciate Barbaras ministry to domestic violence victims on her and Jeff Crippens blog. It appears so, based on this article: https://baptistnews.com/article/satisfaction-guaranteed-southern-baptists-refute-efforts-soften-atonement/#.WUxPq-mQzIU. . The ideal situation IMHO is to get him out of ministry entirely and get help for his family so they understand alcoholism. This thread has been pretty lively. What I came back to say is that just as most Christians, churches, and Christian teaching is naive and ineffectual at tackling domestic violence, alcoholism, depression, and many other issues, that secular counseling or mainstream mental health treatment does not always work, either. I am extremely angry and jealous that I did not make the money he made. Barbara wrote a pretty nasty response to me and H.U.G. but continue in the faith. I think its the same person. I see this all the time too. This assumes that the prior trauma is causing the current opinion, which may or may not be the case, and it assumes that the idea (water) is drawn from a poisoned well (someone with prior trauma) and therefore is tainted not because of what is said but rather because of who said it. Sproul Jr.s case to have been handled the way it was, and not for the reasons you cited. Sr. CAN cut off the paychecks. You want to see anger? The average age of a Sproul family member is 74. Its so embarrassing on top of everything else. Or would you see the situation differently? I shouldnt have used the term unpleasant because Al-Anon isnt that at all. Velour wrote: I had to be treated for major clinical depression and be put on anti-depressants. (And the same goes for HUG where he contemptuously described me as righteous.). 1 Corinthians 5:11-13. She was in the hospital for several months after the accident. Good grief, this is so annoying, Velour. His mother died on the same day that his son RC Jr was born, on July 1, 1965 (obituary says July 3, 1965). Not all former drinkers transform into likeable people. The crack I heard was his leg bone splitting lengthwise down his leg. He needs a skill-intervention by those people around him. That is a very condescending response, Velour. RC Jrs message has long been that heavy drinking is manly and if you want to be a real man (like him?) I would also like to say that in my own extended family there are some alcoholics. Thank you for sharing your familys story with such honesty, and hope. The fact that he felt ok about this statement says a lot of about an addict's powers of denial. They have to want it themselves, and desperately so. (RSJs life definitely qualifies, sad to say.) Menu. That is my understanding of what you are saying. If their Dad is a hard drinker selfish enough to drink and drive with them in the car, then theyll have probably seen a huge amount of other poor behaviours, including him not being able to act as a functional adult for them when their Mum & then their sister died. RC Sproul Jrinitiallypled *not guilty," proving he wasnot ready to face his issues. There is still much distress on this thread, but it does my heart good to see people trying to find common ground. They have to want it themselves, and desperately so. There is more than one issue going on with RC2: alcoholism, spiritual abuse, unrepentant heart, etc. Of course not. Based on everything Im reading about this guy in this thread and the OP by various people, (that he joined an adultery site, hes been a bully for years, is authoritarian, he has his church ostracize ex members, etc) are you saying that this bad fruit should be ignored, all because the guy is also an alcoholic? Anyone who bothers to check out the evidence, and the evidence is overwhelming, will be convinced thats exactly what theyve done his entire life. Sprouls case and how he should be treated, that I NEVER said. Yes he shouldnt have been driving drunk with his kids in the car, but he was really depressed. They didnt go for his excuse, not just because there is no excuse for drunk driving but because they probably already knew there was no cause-and-effect correlation. He was 78. Based on what Im seeing by other people here, who have left posts (other than the one person above who says RC Jr is gentle), the guy sounds abusive. Under this plea agreement he will face no prison time, provided he successfully completes the requirements of his probation. Velour was being hostile to a few people up thread such as Barbara and Julie Anne, and later, to me. I was always scared stiff riding with him, literally praying all the way home, and I didnt even know the Lord then. Im not getting the disconnect going on in this thread. Wow, the deception is strong! I am not the one who is saying how people should get people into treatment programs. He didnt just feel forsaken; he was forsaken. He is not a strong man, apparently. Not just over the alcohol, but based on his other actions (using a cheating site etc) he has disqualified himself. Neither one ever gave up the booze though, although with RC Srs poor health (multiple strokes) he may be drinking less than he did. At some deep emotional level if I hear self medicating one more time used to minimize reasons, effects or societal responsibilities of alcohol abuseArrrgghh. No sir (or maam), I did not create a false correlation. and me and Barbara advocated that alcoholics should be kicked out of the church. This is done to build up the body of Christ unto the maturity and the unity of the faith. Provisions have also been made in order to detect error, sin, falsehood and the demonstration of improper behavior within the body of Christ believers. Am still not seeing how sitting about with other people will cure certain issues such as alcoholism. Velour wrote: Dee and Deb have written how many horrific cases here of people who have been subjected to Biblical Church Discipline? It never came as most of them immediately started looking for the next shiny thing. Heres my list again: So I was only saying what the Bible says. However, I do appreciate your emphasis on treatment. R C Sproul Junior needs to be put out of the church and that needs to be very publicly done because he has been so significant at Ligonier. Letting him remain in the church passing himself off as a Christian does not help him hit bottom. Please work on that. Clearly you didnt read my comment with any understanding of what I was saying. It got depressing, I have lost well over 200 of the people I worked with, most of them younger than I am. That would be difficult, but more likely to lead to a successful recovery, ISTM. from her years of alcohol abuse. I look at it as a psychiatric disorder which becomes an addiction that causes a number of physiological diseases. I am a very grateful member of Alanon and a not so very grateful family member of the CIA( Catholic, Irish, Alcohollic) actually not Catholic anymore. Single Women in the Church: Valued orNot? I am, however, shocked and disappointed that in this day and age with all that is known about helping people with addictions that people would advocate Dark Ages treatment that addicts should be kicked out of the church and proof-text their way to doing it. But Im going to respond a little further. Velour wrote: did comment above and gave us some important facts (and a lot of fiction too): But should RC Jr be permitted to stay in a pastoral role? He is now a wonderful father and husband. I havent read all the comments, so forgive me if I am off topic by this point. Jack wrote: Obviously, I dont know what goes on behind closed doors. They will not change who the man fundamentally is. If somebody asks themselves where the line is then the line may be something they have already crossed in their own mind, or else why would they even ask. Some might call it being accountable. Because she never appeared even tipsy, few people knew her problem. Dont drink wine? As far as I know, no prior convictions. I will be the first to admit that I have a definite bias. I was excommunicated from my NeoCalvinist church on a trumped up charge, like the godly doctor in his 70s before me, and a godly middle-aged woman in finance before him.). No, I am not talking about recovered alcoholics who repented of embracing patriarchy. and me. To an Alky, the Constitutional Right to My Next Drink cannot be infringed in any way. Barbara made the comment to H.U.G. Like RC, none of us can dictate to our grown children how to live their lives. It is natural for a father to want to protect a child from the consequences of their actions but at some point in time when the child keeps doing this the parent has let them experience the consequences. I think Velour was confused by a post I put on my Daisy blog. That is where God met me and my family member. That night I was alone, my mother was somewhere around the city or in the hospital, he was in recovery and my nephew was with a neighbor. Commercials always depict drinkers as so happy, having fun, etc. The absolute worst counseling I have ever received in my life has always come from pastors, which is why I never go to pastors anymore for counsel or advice. This is not a hill to die on and one of the purposes of the blog is to understand the point of view of others. The last time their PCP prescribed a pain killer without knowing the patients drinking habits what problems with the med did you notice? Drunkenness may involve more of a choice than does alcoholism. Velour wrote: Deb, I also meant to say, How horrible for your friend that she lost her parents in such an awful way! The street is a two-laner through Fifties-vintage tract homes, and I was eastbound somewhere between Brookhurst & Euclid when I noticed the headlights coming towards me looked WRONG. I wont deny though that it may have fallen short. Does he have other actual convictions for DUIs or endangering the children? And Im not starting. The domination by one person makes it difficult to have a healthy conversation. Velour wrote: We were the only church for many miles around who had a CR group. While some people in Celebrate Recovery may advocate divorce, Al-Anon doesnt take that approach for the spouses of problem drinkers. Well, according to their own theology, hes not. 2. Have to agree. More than likely his therapy is with someone lacking the qualifications, such as a pastor fan-boy giving him counseling. Also, it might be reasonable to assume that since Lisa didnt specifically state that RC Jr had an AA or CR sponsor hes probably not in an alky support group. Heres where it can be complicated to be part of the church if the church environment is where hes long been allowed to play out sinful behaviours should he be there right now? As our ministry grew we ended up handling adult issues also. (If someone already said this, apologies. Being a parent of an alcoholic or drug abuser is scary. Sproul 2 has done. Why do you feel its necessary to malign a godly servant like RC Sproul as if he is in some way responsible for his grown sons actions! The difference, of course, is that the dementia patient cant help it. But sexual problems are a common problem in alcoholics men and women alike and its covered in treatment programs and post-treatment programs. Yes, he shouldnt have been on Ashley Madison, but hed lost his wife to cancer and was probably lonely. It doesnt take any effort to destroy such a lame excuse. Warning: Unless RC Sproul Jr gets some real help, the next incident could be tragic. Or perhaps it is a reaction against that teaching. I may or may not have had a glass of wine after reading this thread. I hope his (second) wife and children get help to take care of themselves around his alcoholism and learn how to set boundaries with him. I know that mans wisdom can only carry one so far. He is survived by his wife, Vesta, their two children, Sherrie Dorotiak and Robert Craig Sproul, eleven grandchildren, and seven great-grandchildren. And I agree with #3 the kicker is, does HE want treatment? Of course he is angry. 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